Ep 8: Chatting w/ Kate Wallace - Fashion Model Turned AI Startup Founder

[00:00:00] Hello! Today I'm so excited to catch up with my friend Kate Wallace. I met Kate 7 years ago

[00:00:05] through the KP Fellows program for ambitious entrepreneurial students, and of the 100 people in our cohort,

[00:00:11] Kate's life story was by far the most memorable to me. He spent her teenage years as a

[00:00:16] fashion model, then quit. Decided he wanted to work in the tech industry, when on to study design

[00:00:21] at persons, we're got Palatone and product, and is now building a company that brings AI to kids

[00:00:27] and raised $12 million for it. Kate is incredibly bold, driven, and thoughtful,

[00:00:33] and just a wonderful human being. And I'm so excited to cat with her today about modeling,

[00:00:38] how he met her husband, what it's like to work with her husband, as well as her entrepreneur,

[00:00:42] hip-ionny from starting an NFT collection during the crypto boom that made $2 million to her

[00:00:48] personal philosophy and journey, building a product that users really love. I'm so glad we had a

[00:00:53] shot. I'm really excited too. You've just had such an exciting and interesting life, and I would

[00:00:58] love to get to start from the beginning. I know you've gotten him modeling as a teenager. I think

[00:01:03] after getting mono. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Man, I really takes me back. I was living in Toronto,

[00:01:09] and I was 13, and my friend's girlfriend was a model, and she introduced me to her agent. And then

[00:01:15] I signed up with them right away, and then it led to the really crazy five-year journey of like working

[00:01:22] well, also going to school. But I was barely going to school because you know, you'd go to

[00:01:28] set or you'd go to castings and then I got meningitis when I was 16, and because of that I got like

[00:01:34] really thin because I was in the hospital and really sick. And then I got out of the hospital,

[00:01:39] my model and career took off, because I looked, you know, gone to the end of that aesthetic

[00:01:45] that they liked. But I think for me that was also such a wake-up call, or I was like,

[00:01:50] I got out of the hospital and everybody's like, oh, you look fabulous. I'm like, no, I really

[00:01:55] don't look at it at all. I think that was when I first heard thinking about okay,

[00:02:00] is this really what I want to do? I graduated high school and went full time for about a year,

[00:02:05] and then in that year decided that I wanted to go to university and pursue like a more traditional

[00:02:10] career and made this wedge. So I guess up until 16 modeling was your dream and you were

[00:02:16] yeah, for sure. Looking back especially for us, I think being bored in the 90s and stuff like

[00:02:21] our role models were like Victoria's Secret Models and like Britney Spears and you know,

[00:02:27] my brother's had like athletes or like entrepreneurs. I think it just you just grow up being like,

[00:02:32] oh, this is what success looks like for a woman. So I thought that that's what I should do. And then

[00:02:37] all of a sudden I was in it and I was like, oh, I don't feel like I'm reaching my full potential. I don't

[00:02:41] feel very respected in this role. I feel like, like, this isn't for me. But it was a really hard

[00:02:46] change because I think there's fun to remember like, my dad saying, oh, shit, can I, can I give

[00:02:52] this up? Because like, this is what I do. My dad is like, Kate, your 19, you can retire and do something

[00:02:57] on the end. I was like, okay, I think I could reinvent myself here and do something different.

[00:03:02] So I'm really happy that I made that decision but I've been to that point. I really thought that

[00:03:05] I was just going to focus on modeling and fashion. That's so crazy. I'm curious beyond the

[00:03:11] glamour of it. What do you like and dislike about modeling? Yeah, I think the parts that I liked were

[00:03:17] the independent gave me from such a young age. My parents had full-time jobs. They said, okay,

[00:03:21] if you want to do this, you need to get yourself to casting, so you need to travel by yourself.

[00:03:25] You need to go to your own contracts and I just went ahead and did all of that. So I think that

[00:03:30] that was a really great experience for me. My parents have this funny story where they got back to

[00:03:36] them that the model agency thought that I was an orphan because I kept saying my parents couldn't

[00:03:40] be in the first place. I thought there's just no way this kid has parents but it was just my

[00:03:45] parents were so busy and wanted me to, if I wanted to do it just to pursue it myself. So that

[00:03:51] was a really good experience. The part that I didn't like though is at least back then I just felt

[00:03:57] like you're not super respected in that role. Like I just remember being on said and I'd be like,

[00:04:02] get the girl, where's the girl? I'm like a person. My name is Kate and I'm here to do a job

[00:04:07] and I think that that wears on you for sure. Was it mostly men who were like getting this or

[00:04:13] everyone? Definitely a lot of men, I think in the higher up roles even in fashion, it was a lot of

[00:04:21] men but I think the woman too, it was sexism but it was also just being young and I think it was

[00:04:28] the idea of what it meant to be a model. It did some acting too and I was a kid and I actually remember

[00:04:34] that being very different because there's a union and there's rules and if you're a kid,

[00:04:40] you need to have a teacher with you and you need to do a certain number of hours of schooling.

[00:04:45] Whereas this modeling it was just the wildest. There's no protections so I think that that also adds

[00:04:51] to the culture of it. Or a lot of your friends models or did you have friends at school and like

[00:04:56] did they think it was cool that you were modeling? People at school definitely thought it was unique.

[00:05:00] I have a lot of friends who were models, I think those were sort of my closer friends through

[00:05:04] those years. At one point I went to a school that was for kids that did professional things outside

[00:05:11] of school so there's a lot of big athletes, Drake went there back in the day. A lot of people

[00:05:16] from Degrazi so there I sort of fit in because everybody was doing something odd in their spare time

[00:05:22] and then the school was really set up to let you do more independent studies that if you needed to

[00:05:28] go away to shoot something for a few months you could come back and it would be fine.

[00:05:32] That's so crazy. Being able to like a confident-spotting thing for you could be in that environment

[00:05:36] where you were so independent and working. I think it was at first learning how to take the

[00:05:41] subway to get to a casting and do it myself was a confidence boost but then I think it wasn't as

[00:05:48] I got older because I think the pressure became so much and then you know it definitely caused some

[00:05:54] body image issues and stuff for your idea of like what is like a healthy weight and things

[00:05:59] completely started to evolve because you're just surrounded by a totally different view of that

[00:06:04] and that's also when I was like this is not good. I think it was I was in single core for a couple

[00:06:10] months and you know they're doing weight in every day. Like you just see how you're fun.

[00:06:14] Okay the office you get on the scale they measure you and then they're like he'll lose five pounds

[00:06:18] by next week and that's just oh god yeah it's just so crazy but I was so used to it by that point

[00:06:24] I just thought it was normal and then I was like wait why why am I living like this like I really

[00:06:29] don't have to. And then my parents gave me good advice they said don't put university off for too long

[00:06:36] if you want to do something else like this would be a good time to just go to college and then

[00:06:41] that's what I did and I was the the best decision for sure. How did that mentality shift sort of

[00:06:47] back from Singapore and it was like a get-in-cheap go on the next trip sort of thing and I was just

[00:06:54] like not up to it and decided at first just to take some time off and then I decided to just move

[00:07:00] to Montreal go like completely on a whim like I think I decided on a Friday and I moved on like a

[00:07:06] Tuesday and that's what I did. Yeah I didn't know anybody there I moved in with like people from Facebook

[00:07:12] which it was in a red and you could believe strangers and then I started working at a cafe as a

[00:07:20] Bruce stuff but I didn't speak French so I was the worst Bruce ever like people and they gave me a

[00:07:25] chocolate mocha and I would give them like a chocolate cookie because all I was gonna say to

[00:07:30] all I'm so that doesn't has to for long and then my friend I met a girl there in a clothing shop

[00:07:38] we just started chatting and I've been best friends ever since like she was like the main

[00:07:42] of honor of my wedding. Oh my god yeah it was a I don't know I think the universe just brought

[00:07:48] us together but she was like you really just stopped for shoot this kind of thing. I got me an

[00:07:54] internship at a fashion magazine and then I was there that I started seeing all the work the

[00:07:58] developers were doing and it was like oh tech it's really interesting and I'm much more passionate

[00:08:02] about this than I am about what the the editorial team is doing so then that was how I decided I

[00:08:06] wanted to do technology it felt really good have a different direction in a totally different

[00:08:11] area and feel like I got sort of like a fresh start from that. That's awesome. He went to school for

[00:08:16] our design. Yeah I did design and technology at persons I wanted to do app design and it was a

[00:08:22] really great program I learned about a lot of different technologies and learned some like coding

[00:08:27] not enough to be an engineer but enough to understand how technology worked and then really focused

[00:08:33] on app design so that I could go into product design after graduation. How did you know

[00:08:37] and to product design? That's a funny story so I had really one goal after college which was to

[00:08:43] get a visa. I really wanted to say in the US because there's just a lot more tech jobs there so in my

[00:08:50] senior year I applied for a job at better mortgage I don't know if you've heard of it it was like

[00:08:55] the CEO that fired a thousand people on Zoom and they wouldn't really buy her all for that.

[00:09:01] It was that good. Yeah, it's so funny because you've seen better mortgage and nobody's heard of it

[00:09:07] until you mentioned that story and everybody's like oh that company. So I got I got this advice from

[00:09:14] somebody in a program called the next Canada program where he said the best thing you can do for

[00:09:20] your career is to find a company that's going to be a rocket ship and the way to find a company

[00:09:25] that's going to be a rocket ship is find a CEO who's done it before that's raised from good

[00:09:29] investors that's a series B company that's in a big market and just try to get a job there

[00:09:36] to learn so much about building a startup and if the company musically like civilier career.

[00:09:42] So I just like had all this criteria and I put it on Angelist and then I had my list of companies

[00:09:46] and then it was like this one guy, Michelle Garg who's the CEO of better mortgage fit all of that

[00:09:53] criteria. So I was like okay I have to get a job here and I also need to do it before I graduate

[00:09:58] because I need them to be willing to sponsor me so that I could stay after. So I applied to the

[00:10:04] job, I put on my resume that I'd already graduated so that I could get the interview and then I went

[00:10:09] in for the interview and I basically just did the whole interview pretending I could work full

[00:10:14] time because I was like if they liked me and then I'm being be an offered then I can be like

[00:10:18] actually sorry I am still a student but here's why I did this and I really want to work here

[00:10:22] like hopefully just impresses them that I wanted to work there so badly that I would do well in

[00:10:26] July and I just didn't get the job and just go back to the model and like that's the kind of

[00:10:32] like stuff that I think I learned from like a young age which was just kind of like total.

[00:10:35] And the recruiter was like okay because he really liked me, he thought I was a good fit and like how

[00:10:40] many kids are like dying to work for like a mortgage company. So sort of interesting that I was

[00:10:44] like dying for a job there but then he told the CEO and the CEO came in and he had started

[00:10:50] like yelling at me, he was like why would I have a student like you're not going to call me a

[00:10:55] company like what are you like why are you wasting your time and I I was like I just need to find

[00:11:01] a way to convince the guy that it is worth it while he was yelling good at a curting you at all

[00:11:07] that maybe you don't want to work for this person or did it make you feel like no like this

[00:11:11] guy is going to make it. Yeah definitely maybe feel like this guy's good at making it and I want

[00:11:14] to give her this wrong tip. I probably also should have been assigned for what I was getting into

[00:11:19] which was like a really crazy couple years. I just thought he's really passionate and he had

[00:11:25] brought a company public prior and I just really wanted to work there and I was like I can do

[00:11:30] a pretty boss. That's amazing. And then yeah so I worked in India a couple years before and

[00:11:38] gore gown. This like really small town outside of Delhi as a part of a grant and I knew that they

[00:11:43] had a back office there and Fashal is Indian as well. And then as soon as I said that he immediately

[00:11:49] changed his tune. He was like okay this is super interesting and just made it really clear

[00:11:54] that I wanted to work there and then he was like okay you can you can do an internship with a

[00:11:59] condition being that I would stay after his a full-time hire. So when there was a pause in his yelling

[00:12:03] you just like calmly brought up that you had lived in the small town in India. Yeah I think

[00:12:08] it was just blurted it out. It was just like such a weird thing to say he was like really

[00:12:14] and then it's just the whole conversation shifted. I love that you did that. Thank you. I mean yeah

[00:12:20] I was really lucky and life-changing. About six months in a new product manager started he had been

[00:12:26] working in India so then they brought him back to the US and we got off to a horrible start.

[00:12:32] It gets he came it was like this year the future is for a building and I was like I don't think

[00:12:36] these are motivated by user needs and then everything worked out super well because the product

[00:12:41] manager was Blake and now we're married and I worked in Heather. No way! And our wedding

[00:12:46] manager at the time went to my mom it was like it's so funny the first day they worked together

[00:12:51] I had to have a one-on-one with both of them because I'm like how many of them have you been working

[00:12:57] with Blake? The two of us were going to be like a pair on this project. He got there and had his

[00:13:02] own bath and was like okay this is what you're going to design and then I mean this is how he tells

[00:13:07] his story. I don't think that the two exactly that happened but he said I brought him into an

[00:13:12] office and wrote 10 things on the whiteboard that I thought he was doing wrong and he was like who

[00:13:16] is this designer who just showed up? Here it is telling me how to do my job and I was like who

[00:13:22] is this guy who just got back from India and like thinks he knows exactly what we should build

[00:13:26] whereas like I've been like talking to the underwriters in here for the last six months so yeah I was

[00:13:32] definitely a rocky start but then I just worked really well in the end like we actually did work

[00:13:38] super well together and made work way more fun and then we quickly became friends so we're hanging

[00:13:43] out outside of work and then we started talking about starting our own company together and then

[00:13:49] one thing led to another and then we were dating and have just been together in that first disagreement

[00:13:54] you think it was a symptom of an underlying philosophical difference that you guys have or like a

[00:13:59] friend's in a approach or was it truly just like a sort of miscommunication? Oh my gosh we're both

[00:14:04] just like so young and inexperienced. The thing that I learned at better was how to listen to

[00:14:11] users, it was so important to go and understand what the underwriters were going through and what

[00:14:19] their pain points were and trying to address those pain points and I think it's really interesting

[00:14:24] when you have sort of like a product philosophy and a direction you want to take it and then also

[00:14:29] have to match that with what the user needs are. Right and I think that's where this sort of

[00:14:34] the tension was like we were trying on the one hand to automate the underwriting process so that we

[00:14:39] could hire less underwriters but at the same time we had a whole team of underwriters who were using

[00:14:43] the software so I think that that was always it all through each other it's like how do you

[00:14:46] automate a job and also support the job at the same time? By the thing we came up with this philosophy

[00:14:51] we call it make it so that they're like Batman. Like how do you give them the tools to be

[00:14:55] super heroes so that they could be more efficient at their jobs instead of just focusing on

[00:15:00] like completely automating it because that was where the tension was. That makes sense. Yeah

[00:15:04] take me through the here any of the working with Blake to start a company. Oh yeah so we were

[00:15:09] at better working together on underwriting software and then Blake left the company and I took over

[00:15:15] his job so that's how I became a product manager. It was just I was the person who knew

[00:15:19] most about underwriting and they really needed somebody in that position and I realized there

[00:15:23] really loved product management. They're really like data and working with engineers as well as

[00:15:28] UX and UI but after that Blake interviewed at Peloton when he was looking for a new job and at the

[00:15:35] time Peloton product managers did all UX and product management they only had UI design and then

[00:15:42] Blake hates doing UX so he's like this is not a good fit for me but he was like I know somebody

[00:15:46] is and referred me so then I could have Peloton and took that job and then maybe three weeks into it

[00:15:54] they opened the traditional product manager role. That was a lot more sort of data driven in analytical

[00:15:59] and then they were like oh but I think would be a great fit for this. Peter he's so good.

[00:16:04] And I'm nervous. I was like oh yes I am and then I had to tell my manager that we were dating

[00:16:11] and my manager was like I don't care we'll just hire him anyways. So then a few weeks later Blake

[00:16:18] started in a phone call and my manager just managed the two of us like he would give us projects

[00:16:23] and be like I'll just let you guys figure out who's getting to go. That's so amazing and special.

[00:16:28] I'm super impressed that you guys have stayed together both their manufacturing and professionally

[00:16:32] they were multiple columns and I'm so curious how do you deal with it? Yeah yeah for sure.

[00:16:37] I mean at Peloton we were on the same team but as a product manager you don't really

[00:16:42] work directly with other product managers so at Peloton it was really easy and it's really nice

[00:16:47] actually to work with your partner. Like he spent so much of your day at work and you want

[00:16:50] to figure life with your partner so it makes sense to just get to spend that time together

[00:16:54] and I think it's something that we're like really committed to is just always working together

[00:16:58] in the pandemic it was really hard for us because we worked in different rooms and we actually saw

[00:17:02] their way of life. Everybody else just felt like they were in the opposite boat where

[00:17:07] they're presenting so much more time together but for us like our desperate next to each other anymore

[00:17:11] so it just felt very weird. So during Peloton Blake bought a 40 to like the NFTs that took off

[00:17:19] just for fun and it was like it was when they first were released I think it was like $200

[00:17:24] so like not expensive yet yeah any sort of posting on Twitter as if he was the 40

[00:17:31] just in the end. I'm really glad he's really creative and so he created writing and

[00:17:36] college and just wanted to do something fun. I mean Peloton was so crazy during the pandemic

[00:17:40] and we were both just like really burnt out and wanted to do sort of like fun side project

[00:17:45] and then the boardy got really famous on Twitter and led that led us to dropping our own NFT project

[00:17:52] and it went I mean it was it was $0.21 at this point so the market was going crazy but it

[00:17:58] sold out in less than six minutes and we made like $2.00 a lot. It was funny actually he was in a hotel room

[00:18:05] like doing the drop and I was late as I always am and I was going over to console him so I thought

[00:18:12] like there's just no way that this is gonna sell out and then buy the time I got there and sold out

[00:18:18] so I actually missed someone saying yeah yeah it was horrible too like the website crash it was

[00:18:24] in our other co-founder Ethan working on trying to fix the website so that it didn't crash and

[00:18:29] people sort of minting from the contract I was just chaos really like it was like a hug that

[00:18:33] it was over. That's really impressive how did you market it was it if they're buying

[00:18:37] four-day Twitter account? Yeah it was yeah and then there's some other stuff like it was

[00:18:42] our first time ever trying to market something so we had advisors come on who were popular in the

[00:18:48] case and gave them like a small amount of equity to promote it. It was like podcast it was Twitter

[00:18:55] hit that time there's such a community around boardy so we were able to just get a lot of support

[00:19:00] that was the start of the company so it was called the writer's room and it was a pass where you

[00:19:05] could come in and create stories and characters and from there we raised our seed round led by A6T&Z

[00:19:12] and quit our jobs and started the company. I'm really curious what you learned about marketing

[00:19:17] and high-poding. On the marketing side of things building a community is a really great way to

[00:19:22] get started if you have people that are following you and care about what you're doing you

[00:19:25] have a community to launch a product into that was something that we definitely had at that time

[00:19:31] also just coming from the Peloton pandemic wave and then the NFT wave through all of that

[00:19:37] we realized if you have a market that's going crazy like you can just catch the wave so

[00:19:42] you can see a maniac like get in it. I do want to say that I feel like I saw a lot of people

[00:19:47] try to get in on the crypto maniac but I do have a certain other class of friends who tend

[00:19:52] to like overthink over analyzed before acting and none of them made a lot of money and I feel

[00:19:57] like there's something about your personality of being such a go-gender and like hard committing

[00:20:01] that is probably especially conducive to like properly taking advantage of a high-pave that's

[00:20:07] emerging very quickly and that you have to act on quickly. Thank you. Yeah I know I appreciate

[00:20:12] you saying that credit really goes to play on so much of that. I think also it was like the first

[00:20:17] thing we did where we were like we're just doing this for fun. Like the three of us yeah like

[00:20:21] then had tried to start so many random side projects in the past and we had like fitness stuff

[00:20:29] we had habit tracking we had sugar free gummy bears we had not always a whole like wine and it

[00:20:35] turned out like it was we were just making grape juice so many random things trying to start a

[00:20:41] business but it was when Blake was like you know I just need to do something fun so I'm so burnt out

[00:20:46] that it actually just caught. I think there's probably a lesson there too is just when you're happy

[00:20:51] with what you're doing like the rest sort of follows. Absolutely yeah and if you're like naturally

[00:20:55] excited about it you're probably just going to see things that other stuff. Yeah yeah he was posting

[00:21:01] stories on Twitter as if he was this monkey about other people's kind of key characters and

[00:21:08] he was just always so much fun doing it and I think people it just resonated with people. Okay

[00:21:13] that's fair to rest of the journey we're building a desktop experience where you could log

[00:21:17] in with your NFTs and sort of co-create stories together. I first were just focused on all the

[00:21:22] things that weren't working and trying to fix them and then we had this moment where like oh what we

[00:21:27] need to do is look at what is working and double down on that. Like there were some people

[00:21:33] that kept coming back that was really like to be like writing competition so they were creating

[00:21:37] character like creating stories about their characters so we sort of took that insight and said okay

[00:21:41] let's just really focus on this and again sort of after ourselves like what would we be the

[00:21:47] happiest working on? So we took that insight of people like doing characters and story instead

[00:21:52] of okay let's do like a mobile app and we really started off doing text adventure games. We had

[00:21:58] some people who were like spending 20 hours a week building these text adventure games which was

[00:22:03] really creating engagement that we saw that the market wasn't going to be big enough to like build

[00:22:09] this kind of venture we wanted to but the thing that was happening was any of the stories on

[00:22:14] that that people were making for kids were really sticky like those were the people who had

[00:22:18] to be doing for me the stories and we had parents reaching out to us being like I would pay for

[00:22:22] more content it's like my kid keeps asking for more mobile adventures or like hey can I

[00:22:27] got a t-shirt for this because like my kid really wants pepting crumbs on a shirt okay so now

[00:22:32] this feels like a more scalable market and it makes so much sense that kids are the people that

[00:22:36] are interested in this type of experience so we said okay let's just really focus on the kids use

[00:22:41] case. Can you have like 30 seconds summary of what the platform is today? On the Avenue app you

[00:22:47] can play a story from our library or you can create your own it's all powered by AI so you can

[00:22:52] do a prompt and it will generate a whole story for you. Your prompt can be I went to space on a

[00:23:00] rocket ship into feed-a-catching crumbs with lightsabers or you can also just write in like tomato

[00:23:05] and it actually creates like a pretty great story that way too because of the work we've done

[00:23:08] on the back end and I think the thing that people especially kids really like is that you can

[00:23:13] create a character that will be featured in that story so I could create a character that

[00:23:17] looks like me and name it Kate and create a story and Kate will be in the story in consistent

[00:23:24] across all the imagery or if you're a parent doing a bedtime story you don't want to think of

[00:23:29] a story that you can just choose one from our library and play that. That just made me remember how

[00:23:34] often I kept asking my parents for new stories. They were probably sick of making up something.

[00:23:38] Yeah so we hear from parents too they say every night my kid wants me to come up with a story and

[00:23:43] I have no more ideas or the kid will be like that I want to story about unicorns up by hockey

[00:23:49] and it's just like really hard to think of the unicorns up by hockey story but of course

[00:23:54] they say it becomes a lot easier. Yeah that's fascinating because when we were growing up

[00:23:58] it was like everyone reads like Dr. Suss or everyone sort of reads the same like big

[00:24:04] children's books but I could say a future where every kid has their own unique story and no

[00:24:09] two kids are reading about the same character is which future do you think were headed toward?

[00:24:14] I think what will be really interesting is kids getting to put themselves into popular

[00:24:19] stories so like if I could go into the future version of Pokemon and be Kate in that story it's

[00:24:26] like the Pokemon that's consistent or the Star Wars that's consistent but you got to be the character

[00:24:31] in the story I think that that's what resonates so much with people is they sort of fall in love

[00:24:36] but the characters and I want to keep coming back to read the next robot adventures because

[00:24:40] they get to be featured in it it makes it so much more exciting kids especially just really love

[00:24:45] seeing themselves as a part of the content. That makes a lot of sense that kind of mirrors

[00:24:49] I think what we've been seeing with like character AI like catbox also is people

[00:24:53] creating AI characters based on existing franchises and having their own personal conversations

[00:24:58] with these existing characters. Yeah yeah exactly really like an extension of the

[00:25:03] these existing franchises. I also want to hear more about what you said about user research.

[00:25:09] I feel like doing user research for consumer fio's different because in like BWA or Fintek

[00:25:15] the customer will tell you directly what they want or is skin consumer it's harder for consumers

[00:25:20] to necessarily articulate what they want and it's maybe harder to even trust them like there's a

[00:25:25] more into like you're going on. What's it like understanding user as sort of consumer product

[00:25:31] for kids? I think consumer is definitely different but at Peloton right was previous to avenue

[00:25:37] we were also working on consumer and if you have a product that somebody is already using

[00:25:43] and that is working for them they can give feedback on it which is probably also how it

[00:25:48] feels in BWA it's like okay like we're solving problem X they're using it for X now they're asking

[00:25:54] us for why but it took a lot what I thought worked at Peloton and tried to apply it to a start-up

[00:26:00] and it actually didn't work at all. If you're trying to find product market fit I think user research

[00:26:05] can be really tough because they're going to tell you what they think they want but it's not

[00:26:11] based on what they actually want because they're not using it yet um we spent a year building an

[00:26:16] early version of our product that was you know we were following all of the steps that we learned

[00:26:21] of Peloton like we would want just small version we would use the order of you calls with

[00:26:24] people who would record them and summarize the data we'd look at the responses we prioritized

[00:26:29] a feature and then we build another thing and we just like pet doing that and we ended up with

[00:26:33] those Frankenstein product where it just it didn't really have real use case because we tried to

[00:26:39] just take everybody's feedback and build based off of that but we've learned since is that having a

[00:26:46] really clear problem is helpful so for us kids want to create stories where they can be the hero

[00:26:52] and our our metrics would be okay are they creating stories or they coming back to read the

[00:26:57] stories and just staying laser focused on that and then letting the data inform more of the decisions

[00:27:04] we make I think has been more effective and it will talk to users and get their feedback by

[00:27:10] thinking the best feedback is if somebody stops using it asking them why because they'll get to

[00:27:16] the part of the issue like a good one is oh my daughter loves this product but I have to

[00:27:22] read a story because she's not old enough to read and then I went back and you know we didn't

[00:27:27] use the product for a week or you know we came back and I didn't have the time to read a story

[00:27:33] that had to make dinner and it's like okay those are real reasons and then we got to the point

[00:27:37] where audio narrations really important be as then the kid can use it by themselves but the

[00:27:42] track we fell into before was we would just ask what else would you like to see and then they'll

[00:27:45] give you the idea but it might not actually be what they need. When you work with Blake how do you

[00:27:50] guys divide responsibility is especially given I guess you guys in kind of similar there's definitely

[00:27:55] been a lot of iterating I think at first we tried to have super firm lines where Blake's a CEO he

[00:28:01] does a lot of the business side and strategy as well as things like investor relations or external

[00:28:06] and then I was really focused on building the product and I think what we learned from that

[00:28:12] and it goes against traditional advice because people always say try to have your lines with

[00:28:15] your co-founders but it's better for us if we understand what each other are working on and

[00:28:21] have an open dialogue because we respect each other as a ping-an a lot and make better decisions

[00:28:25] in the moment I realized this was you know I had like our roadmap for the next two weeks I had

[00:28:30] it all thought out I was like this is why we're doing this is this is the list of projects and

[00:28:34] he just made this point he was like well our drop-off is super high at the beginning of that

[00:28:38] like this is the number one thing we need to be working on we're just losing so many people up

[00:28:41] but I know so frustrated because I thought I'd put so much effort into this roadmap and then

[00:28:45] I was like damn he's right that means that how you're making it you know like just having his

[00:28:50] like separate a thing in was really helpful so I think one thing we've learned is just to like take

[00:28:57] a second to really listen to each other and know that if things get too intense we'll be like

[00:29:02] wanting the same thing so that helps with those discussions for sure the other thing that's funny is

[00:29:08] like being product manager if we really have a metric for success so it's like what are our metrics

[00:29:12] for success for working together and it used to be that we're trying to reduce any number of

[00:29:17] disagreements which is really hard because then you start agreeing even if you don't agree and then

[00:29:21] we really actually are metric for success is time to recover so how quickly can we be like hey

[00:29:28] this is to intense move back and then just be good and yeah for you that really quickly then

[00:29:34] you can move through the day and be effective and also give each other feedback which I think

[00:29:38] makes for a better product and company. I love that if you like that blaze into your

[00:29:43] relationship like over person on this agreement. I think so I think for us at all it just

[00:29:47] players at one point we're trying to have stricter work life balance we're like we didn't

[00:29:52] talk about work over dinner or we don't text about work we only do it on Slack but just was

[00:29:56] so painful and just we love our jobs so it's probably wanted to talk about what we wanted to.

[00:30:01] So it's also sort of letting go of that pressure and just being like okay this is the season

[00:30:04] of life we're in right now which is we work all the time and we love it and that's cool.

[00:30:09] Frankson I feel when I was working with a couple I felt like one advantage that I had

[00:30:15] over them was that I could complain about my disagreements with them to my boyfriend who was

[00:30:20] just like unusual third party and I'm curious if you have a best friend who you were into or

[00:30:25] you're just a really good at all the healing with your disagreement. Because point I think

[00:30:29] I think it's just each other we have Ethan who's our third co-founder who's amazing and such a

[00:30:34] level headed person I think that that also really helps because it's sort of like a third voice

[00:30:39] I just really appreciate his energy and calm disposition it really makes everything good.

[00:30:44] I'm sure you're the first and she here to be a skit fan.

[00:30:48] One last question. Do you ever miss hatching or modeling? Oh yeah I think it's such a long

[00:30:55] era of my life. I think when you asked about I just thought wow I haven't thought about this

[00:30:58] and so so many years it's funny when you're a kid like whatever you're doing feels like it'll be

[00:31:04] your life forever and then as you get older you've got these different chapters and the

[00:31:08] the previous chapters like matter so much less like me today it's really just about living in

[00:31:13] Toronto spending time with my family and growing this company which really takes up all my

[00:31:17] brain energy and my golden dutel. I mean I know you had a dog. Yeah yeah I actually got on the

[00:31:25] at home for six weeks and it was a good time to get a puppy in and now we're like oh we can never

[00:31:28] go back to an office because he's so used to having a dog. That's so cute. I also love that you guys

[00:31:34] were one of the first delivers like the first week that pandemic hits you just like going

[00:31:37] at off the dog. Yeah we saw him on Instagram and just the trigger so quickly and then yeah it was

[00:31:44] the best decision though. And that I think also helps with the work life balance. Like you have to walk

[00:31:49] the dog again you know it's not going to go the dog so it can see the take a great. I will have to

[00:31:53] stop here and string around for photos of him. Thank you so much it was so fun catching up with

[00:31:58] the yos of such amazing stories and I'm so happy for you and Blake. Thank you thank you I really appreciate